I gave dating the finger

[intjonathan]

So I was going to write this huge essay called "I gave dating the finger" about how I saw gender relations and how I figured on finding a mate etc etc. Totally seperate from specific incident, of course, but something I felt compelled to write simply so I could be sure I was approaching things clearly. That and it seemed like a good way to stir up argument, which is always fun.
Anyway if I was going to bastardize Josh Harris' title, I might as well know my way around his book. Having never read it, I glanced at the summary, swiped his introductions, and began defining my terms of philosophical deductive argument. Everything was going peachy until I glanced at his conclusions. Hmmmmm. Now believe me when I say that I arrived at my ideas totally independent of Mr. Harris' work. Not that I ever thought of what I was going to write as revolutionary, but I figured at least it would be different from a large and published work. His focus looks a lot more "relationship with God" than mine ever was. Mine was founded on two principles: All exclusive relationships end in one of two ways: breakup or marriage, and breakup = bad. Consequently, do not enter an exclusive relationship unless you want it to end in marriage. Granted that's a gross simplification but it's a very different process than Mr. Harris used. I knew that much, so I thought maybe our conclusions were different? Not at all. I had mate relations split into four parts: friends -> close friends -> courting -> marriage. Mr. Harris used exactly the same things! D'oh!
I'm not sure what all this means, I guess I'll have to read the book now, but most likely I'll just be nodding along, going "duh, Josh." This is all so weird I'm still trying to process it while I write. I had all this planned out, you know, all my tricky turns of evidence and phrase. For naught, I suppose. That's not to say it doesn't have value for it's audience, and I might still write it because it's fun, but it's going to owe a heavy debt to one book and lose a lot of it's initial value because of it. What a shame.

To stir up the controversy my essay couldn't, I want to talk about this in light of my failed attempt to come up with something different - I'd love to hear from you. If you think Josh Harris is a crazy sumbitch and dating rul3z, I'd still love to hear from you. I think this is a worthwhile discussion to have now that many of us and our friends are approaching marriage age and watching friends do crazy adult things like raise kids. How differently do you see dating now that you're older? Are there principles you once believed that you now reject and vice versa? How carefully do you consider the outcome of a relationship before you enter one? Has that changed as you've grown up? What the hell is my problem anyway and why can't I find a nice girl and get to smooching? Does any of this matter if you're in vbhrepresent or are Josh "Cavemen had it Right" Adams?
Leave a comment or else.

Comments

[popstarkiller.livejournal.com]

Here's something to point out. Mr. Harris is not cool and behind the tymes in perspective of style. You're cool. So with that, I think you've ousted mista Harris.

[juxtaposejade.livejournal.com]

this hasn't anything really to do with your post .... although that is hilarious

i wanted to call you to see if you'd want to chill with possibly lee and me and whoever else but i no have your telephono numero. :)

[niralisse.livejournal.com]

You could come along car shopping but I've got plenty of opinions on door handles already :) Come to the drive-in tonight if you can. If you can't my # is 425 742 2991

my ten cents, two cents are free

[fuzzandfeedback.livejournal.com]

I think this is a valid discussion to have. The problem with Mr. Harris's book isn't what he says; much of it is valid. I think it represents a viable alternative to the heartache-and-scars dating scene.
The problem lay in the fact that much of the christian and practically ALL of the homeschooling community took it in as the 67th book of the bible.
The thing is, everyone will find their soulmate a different way. There is no guaranteed "way" that will be right.

Re: my ten cents, two cents are free

[niralisse.livejournal.com]

Yay, someone wants to fight! :)
I never saw a large community take hold of these ideas and like, take them as gospel. Most of what I saw toward it was ambivalance, hence my feeling all badass about having these 'new and different' ideas - nobody I knew was using them. I remember talking about it way back in the day and people going "yeah, sure you COULD do that..."
And while everyone will find their mate a different way, most people have a way in mind. Since the "heartache and scars" method is so pervasive, a lot of people are finding (or trying to find) their mate that way and never thinking twice. You might even call it a guaranteed way that will be wrong.

Re: my ten cents, two cents are free

[fuzzandfeedback.livejournal.com]

Let me clarify:
When I said "Homeschooling community/christian community" I was talking about the parent/youth leader types who tried force "Courtship" and other such ideas down the throats of 13 year olds.

Why do you think there's (historically, it's getting better) been so much sex segregation naturally occurring at homeschool social functions?
Of course, there are a lot of reasons for that, but I'd say the "Courtship mindset" (which basically says that any time two people of the opposite sex are together there will be fucking, therefore keep them away from eachother) was a contributor.

As for dating being the "Wrong way," I could counter that at the same time, setting such a high bar for whom you'd want to be in an exclusive relationship with (IE: Do I want to MARRY this person?) could end up psychologically crippling in a variety of ways.

Re: my ten cents, two cents are free

[fieria.livejournal.com]

I just want to say right now that not only did I read that horrible book, I went to the guy's seminar in portland. Right off the bat, he askewed his message for me by announcing he was engaged; by doing that, he had effectively crossed over from "hey, he's like me!" to "oh. he's a coupled person."

I can add solid evidence to Graham saying ,"setting such a high bar for whom you'd want to be in an exclusive relationship with (IE: Do I want to MARRY this person?) could end up psychologically crippling in a variety of ways." Instead of giving a sob story, I'll just say that it has its definite disadvantages. Instead of asking, "do I want to be with this person for forever", I used to ask myself, "Can I see myself with this person a year from now, and what would our relationship be like?" If I didn't like what I saw, or I didn't see anything at all, I'd dump the guy. Most of my relationships lasted about a month; partly because it was highschool/a year post-highschool dating, mostly because I'd already analyzed it.

I will say that once I knew I wanted to marry Brian, I started to half-jokingly ask him to marry me every two weeks or so. ;} Graham shook his head and moaned at that, and told me to stop it. But it put the idea in Bri's head, so he got to ask me and I didn't have to step on his male ego. (I get impatient with waiting for guys, so I'm usually the one to ask them out, first kiss, etc. It saves months of wondering whether or not they like me.)

As for the christian community embracing that book, did you curl up under a rock and stuff your ears these past years? The hype isn't so big now, but Spirit 105.3 used to broadly proclaim the wonders of Joshua Harris. There were seminars. He was at Christian rallies. I think he was even at Creation at the Gorge. My mother wanted me to give up dating and follow Harris' guidelines. My church organized a ride-share for people who wanted to go to his seminar in Portland. Quite a few of my fellow youth groupers follow it like its some sort of bible. People went NUTS.

And you know what I have to say to that? Fuck him. For telling people that everyone you date takes a piece of your heart, and if you date a lot of people, you only have a little chunnk left at your wedding. Hearts will regenerate, given time. Or what about that metaphor of all those girls who had done something with a guy while they were dating, and came to join him in a chain at the altar when he got married? Fuck that too. When I get married, I will have left anything and everything I have done with other guys in the past. I've told my fiance about it, and it's not the huge friggin' deal that Josh Harris thinks it is. It didn't hurt me to tell Bri about stuff, and it didn't hurt him to listen to it (I asked). So I bite my thumb at Harris's world o' self-denial.

I rejected the Josh Harris teachings because to me, they basically said that I couldn't get into a dating relationship until I thought I was going to marry someone, then we would begin courting. But if that courtship doesn't work out, you're in for a WORLD of hurt that's going to be much much bigger than if you were dating and you simply didn't click. And yes, I know that's oversimplifying. But I think breaking off a courtship would be like breaking off an engagement; not having the middleman of dating between friendship and engagement means you don't have the buffer/padding for rejection that you would otherwise. I know people get burned from dating. I have too. But so what? Everybody does. It's part of the live and learn philosophy of life, one I happen to think actually works. I belive I'm better for having gone through bad relationships, because now the good one is all the more sweeter. And despite how Harris despises the system of dating, let me just say it worked for me.

These are my nonsense 5 a.m. thoughts.

[bagheadman.livejournal.com]

I read, “I kissed dating good-bye” when I was 15… my mom made me because boys were calling me. Then a couple years ago I read, “boy meets girl” but this time it was by my own choice. (I actually read it when I was dating the most immature guy in the world who absolutely could not keep a job… even though I was heart broken when it ended, never during our short relationship cold I imagine being with him the rest of my life. He made me cry all the time.)

I have realized that it’s dumb to date or do anything until you’re ready for marriage. It’s all stupidity before that. Pointless. There is more than one… Less than 5… boys that I wish I could say I hadn’t dated. It’s not that pieces of my heart are scattered abroad and my husband will only have the small chunk that’s left over – on the contrary, this sounds goofy, but I have told Nathan that I never thought my heart would be whole again (I seriously didn't... I had been so used in my last relationship.), but now it is.
However, I do wish though that I could say I didn’t date an 18-year-old when I was 16, who 2 years later ran away with a 14 year old. Engh. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

I knew I was going to end up with Nathan after we started staying up half the night talking. I remember distinctively telling Tiffany I knew who I was going to end up marrying after we started talking until 3 and 4 AM and I saw how well he got along with my family. We just... "clicked".

I don’t really agree with courtship, and I certainly don’t think that Joshua Harris’s book is gospel, but I kinda had to go with it for a year due to the fact that it was a long distance relationship. It was totally worth it though – we’re best friends now. I tell him everything and we know each other better than we would have if we didn’t depend on phone conversations and letters alone for almost a year.

I used to always think 2 things – 1. I want to marry my best friend and 2. The right person to marry is the one who you can work better for God together than you would alone. Now I believe those 2 things plus I think that you should wait until marriage could be an option, and, seeing how God has worked in my relationship, you have to let God work things out. So many things have happened that I know that God planned for me to meet Nathan. I just wish I had waited 4 more years to date. :-)

It’s good stuff to read though… at least it makes you think.

Anyways. That’s all. Going to bed now. G'night.

[merrique.livejournal.com]

nothing profound to say.
your entry simply sparked the memory that Josh and I went to his seminar/speech/whatever.
With out mothers.
Now THAT was uncomfortable!
LOL

[niralisse.livejournal.com]

I went to a conference about sex and dating with my mother and the Gruhls. (Not Harris, just some random thing in town.) They split us up by sex and age group, then everyone joined up again for a talking. It brought the uncomfortableness to be sure. Though years later I did see Harris talk at Creation, which was cool. He's a pretty good speaker at least :)

Re: my ten cents, two cents are free

[niralisse.livejournal.com]

gaah, you weren't supposed to talk about specifics... oh well I didn't warn you.

I call the rock I hide under the "lutheran bretheren church". We are firm believers in heartache and scars, apparantly. I'm the outsider at my church for not having a girlfriend. And all that stuff went under my homeschool radar, or maybe it was before my time.

You say everybody gets burned from dating. What if everybody didn't? I'm not out to call dating Beast and cry for its abolition, but I will make it exceedingly clear that I feel there's a better way. I mean, given the choice - and I was - wouldn't you try and select the best way to find a mate? One that minimized suckiness/heartbreak/pregnancy? I think open selection is a very important step if you want to decide how to approach an important decision such as this.

Now, it's a bit odd to discuss this with someone for who discusses dating in past-perfect tense (pot to kettle: you are black) so I'm not going to try and change your mind. But I do want to correct a misunderstanding.

they... said that I couldn't get into a dating relationship until I thought I was going to marry someone, then we would begin courting.

That is correct only in the letter of the theory, and misses the point. There is a stage necessary before courtship. Harris' idea is to remove the exclusive nature of dating and call that stage "purposeful intimacy". I just called it "close friendship", but it's basically the same thing. The stage is there because Harris thinks, as I do, that you don't need to be in an exclusive relationship to decide whether you want to start courting someone. While you are right in saying that courting is not to be taken lightly, the system does make amends for the decision to be an informed one.

Also, courtship is NOT engagement. Every system of mating needs to have a period of exclusive relations outside marriage, courting is Harris'. It's dating as you know it, but it takes place later and with a different outcome in mind.

I am glad that dating worked for you and that you do not regret your decisions. That is wonderful and you are very lucky. I also think that if you want to come across as convincing, a lot of "fuck that"s will not aid your case. But I digress. You seem to like your opinions and you may keep them. Though frankly it seems you hardly need them anymore.

Re: These are my nonsense 5 a.m. thoughts.

[niralisse.livejournal.com]

aiee! more specifics. I shall try not to step on your toes, but you're swing dancing barefoot and I'm still wearing boots.

I have realized that it’s dumb to date or do anything until you’re ready for marriage. It’s all stupidity before that. Pointless.

Brilliant, and something that I realized - but didn't articulate - at a pretty young age. In fact that sums up most of what Harris is trying to get across, just in a sideways manner.

I'm terribly curious how you think your relationship with Nathan would have played out if he had lived in, say, Bothell. How would you have approached the situation? LDRs force your hand in many ways, what would you have done if it had been local?
Secondly, now that you feel so confident that Nathan's the flux capacitor for your DeLorean, what do you plan to do? Are you jumping straight to courtship or doing the dating thing? Because now every detail of what you think will be tested. Were I you, and I'm not, I would make a point of discussing this with him soon after he returns.

But this is not "Help me, Harlan!". You're a fine example of someone who found dating not to work and wishes they had chosen another thing. You found your own way, which I was unable to do. I commend you for that. But be careful going forward.

Next time be sure to make a specific ‘vague comments only’ request and I will do my best to comp

[bagheadman.livejournal.com]

:-)

Whether or not he was local really wasn’t an issue because we when we started our relationship (August 16!) we realized that God meant for him to come to Washington and for us to meet.
I just looked at the benefits of the fact that by him living on the east coast, and how we would build an incredible relationship where we could really communicate.
I look at how things have worked and I know that God planned this.

-He wasn’t planning on coming to Washington for the internship, but he ended up coming because there was a chance that his friend who is in the army might have been able to come as far as Seattle from where he was stationed in Korea & he just might get to see him. Unfortunately it didn’t happen.

-He ended up coming to Church at Kirkland where I attend (and there are quite a few locations for the church of Christ in this local area)

-He had a lot of girls hitting on him this summer, and I had decided that I wasn’t going to be another one of those stupid girls & I would wait for him to make the fist move. So while he had girls threatening him to do what she said or she would kiss him… I just hung out in the background. We became friends and started talking all the time to ridiculously late hours (minus me hitting on him), and guess who it was he liked more... :-)
We even got a slight idea of what a LDR with 3-hour time difference would be like when I was on the east coast for a month. I was helping my aunt and uncle move and we started calling each other all the time and talking until late late late east coast time.

-I have never been so honest with a guy I liked. I would always change minor things to be more accommodating to him. Nathan really knows me for who I am. (And for some strange reason he still likes me.)

-Out of many, many, many people who interviewed for his job, they were only going to take on 15 people… he ended up being one of the hired few.

-Due to 9/11 they ended up only taking one person on. Not fifteen. 15-14=Nathanx1.

It is absolutely amazing to see how God has worked in our lives.
I know we’re going to end up married because I know that he is the man that God has prepared for me. Everything we’ve been through was to prepare us for each other.
Even though I really really wish I hadn’t dated those frogs, I know that if I hadn’t been in my previous relationship I know I wouldn’t appreciate Nathan nearly as much as I do.

We’ve been talking about marriage for a little while now, so at his point we’re building our relationship together, a.k.a. in the same state… dating with the purpose to be married some day.
(He has proposed to me so many times I told him I wouldn’t believe him when he really asked.)

We’ve discussed these things…all of this isn’t something I have concluded on my own.

This is just how it has worked for me and I think it’s neat. Different people do different things and get different results that are equally as neat. It’s just such a neat example of how God has worked in my life. :-)

Headin’ off to bed now. Night night.